View Full Version : [week 49] Did Mambo became too commercial?
Hi everybody,
welcome to the second topic of the week. This week I would like to talk the growing commercial products and services for Mambo.
Many of the older Mambers, who know Mambo for many years now, fell in love with Mambo because it was a simple and powerfull freak CMS. No commercial products existed and only a small group of 3rd party developers shared their free components and modules.
It started with Mambook, which was the first commercial product for Mambo Open Source. I remember myself pretty well, how angry I got about Emir's 5$ guestbook component. It was the day I started AkoBook, Mambo's No. 1 guestbook at the moment... ;)
Many month later there are dozens of commercial components, modules, templates and Mambots today. At the moment a lot developers have started to split up there once free components in a free and a more powerfull commercial branch.
Is this good or is this bad for Mambo? And why do you think so? Is Mambo moving away from the Open Source base it came from? Do you feel cut off from the powerfull software? Or do you like the commercial products, as they are more reliable and do come with support?
I'm looking forward to see your posts... :)
alterego
29.11.2004, 23:42
Well, I think Mambo has a good balance of free, simple products and powerful, commercial products. If anything, there are not enough commercial grade, high quality products, IMO. I would never have even considered Mambo if there had not been some commercial grade, professionally supported addons. If I need to offer someone a very low-cost CMS with only free addons, Mambo can do nicely. If I need to offer someone a competitively priced CMS with some supported and custom development, Mambo also does nicely. I like the flexibility this gives me.
I have used some other popular CMS products that have literally hundreds of free modules to add; and in every case I found the quality to be too poor to recommend to my commercial customers and too buggy to satisfy my budget-conscious customers for very long. The quality of the free Mambo components is probably higher because of the competition with low-cost commercial components. The better the quality of the commercial components, the better will be, hopefully, the free products available.
As for the commercial products, there are still many glaring holes in the product lines available.
eyezberg
29.11.2004, 23:46
I have nothing against spending some money on add-ons which fullfill a specific need.
The only complaint I have is the price asked.
I would buy lots of things (and I'm sure most of us would) very easily for $5
(example: I got everything this guy sells: http://www.tufat.com/), but around $20 (or worse now, 20€ !) it's starting to become a lot.
Maybe not a lot in some people's ratios, but still a lot for a personal hobby website to add a feature, specially if there's 2 or 3 or 4 to add..
Check this out:
buy domain ~ 20$ cheapo..
get so-so ok hosting $100 to start of for a year
get a nice commercial template $20
sef advance 40€ (was it..?)
etc etc, it adds up quickly!
So ok, make commercial stuff, but sell a lot cheap and not some for high prices!
With all the talk about SEF/SEO these days (what was last weeks topic about again..?), how many users out there would instantly buy SEF Advance if it was selling $5 (or maybe even $10)? For 5 bucks, I bet hundreds of users a day.. now do your math on that.. ;)
infra-greg
30.11.2004, 00:57
I reckon eyezberg makes a good point...to set a web site up can get very costly very quickly...if everyone charged big money for a component, mambo will become the CMS of the rich...
often there are company costs too...set up, taxes, this, that...
i agree with eyezberg that the components should be in the lower range regarding price...more would buy them then...
which would then also make it worthwhile for the developer and s/he won't feel s/he's not being paid his/her worth...
i'm very aware of the commercial world we live in...but if you take a stand to be Open Source...its not a light matter...its a pretty strong ideological point you're making....
i'm not saying Mambo and ALL 3rd party components should be free...but just that some should be a bit cheaper...
$20-30 bucks is not a lot for a commercial grade component that would cost thousands to develop if you hired a bunch of programmers. Fortunately many of the free components are very powerfull too. I try to use free as much as possible, but there are times you need something special. Also you don't always want a developers name and url at the bottom of the page, more developers should offer a name/link free license for a nominal fee.
Hi,
i agree with the posts before. A good choice of free and commercial makes mambo more valuable.
The price is often a problem. I agree, that cheaper products (hopefully) sell more often. But i recognized, that if somebody needs a special thing (on a commercial basis), the price is not the real problem. A special mambot or module, which has a special function for a customer, can easily cost up to € 200 - and i have several modules / mambots sold. If you would offer each of these scripts to a large audience, none would be "worth" more than € 5 - 10.
But i think, it's important for mambo, that professional developers offer their service to customers, so that mambo gets more popular for companies. If more companies use mambo, more professionals will develop for mambo.
Greetings, Thomas
spacemonkey
30.11.2004, 01:25
Excellent topic!
The reasons I chose Mambo were the ease of use and great 3rd party community - both free and commercial. Without this diverse mix of people and tools, Mambo would be just another CMS! I would be devastated were this 3rd party community to pick up and go somewhere else, that is for sure!
This decision should be easy for all of us, as the bigger the Mambo family, the better it is for everyone. :)
However, on an individual (project) basis, I cannot make up my mind over commercial versus F/OSS, or expensive versus cheap. Here is what is going through my mind:
1) Commercial versus F/OSS: How do you determine if a product should be commercial or F/OSS? And if it is F/OSS, how do you decide it if belongs in the core or not?
2) Cheap versus expensive: Cheap is a great entry point, but for $5 you cannot expect any kind of support more than an email or two... And if I was trying to sell something for only $5, then I would be mad for promising stellar support for such a low cost - after all, I am but one man, and have a family to feed... My belief has always been to give everything away and charge for support, training and customization. That model is very common in today's world. Is there a better way to do it?
-- Mitch, Mambo Core Developer
faoronin
30.11.2004, 05:27
You would be amazed at the type of support you get for the $5 or so that you spend at sites like tufats (mentioned above).. I've seen it from others as well in this community. These tend to be people who not only make some money on their talents, but also love doing it.
free & commercial versions of the same product from the same dev is a little more touchy though. I'd prefer to see a free product with paid support available over that.
I love that mambo has a very very nice mixture of open source components/modules etc and commercial.
thethepapapa
30.11.2004, 06:24
Great topic Arthur! I simply have to step out and say my piece. I may end up stepping on my d!nk too.... (for those of the international scene, its a common phrase used here in Canada for saying something that gets you in trouble)....but what the heck! No risk, no reward.
I've been doing the mambo thing for almost four years now (3 solid fer sure). I've grown as Mambo has grown. For the first three years, a lot of folks in the local web community thought I was nuts. Fine with me, I liked what I got into.
Recently, I was able to land some nice jobs simply because of my mambo given ability to weave assorted bits of scripts into a single cohesive web site that met or exceeded the needs of the client. I managed to weave proprietary third party stand alone scripts, along with the opensource core of Mambo, and a few opensource components and modules, into one easy to navigate web site. The client was thrilled that his site went from empty space to full blown, fully functional site in less than 48 hours.
There is a company in this town that charges $35,000 per domain name to use their proprietary asp code based CMS. If you need extra functionality, like 'user name and password' login, or a poll component...that's extra, at $150 to $300 per hour. Want to add on a 'questionnaire', that will be another 2 thousand to 20 thousand dollars please. And, if you want the sitte replicated...you have to pay to redevelop what they just supplied because they don't use the same code...they are always building functionality from the ground up. With MAmbo, and a few extras, I can deliver the same or more functionality, and a much more competitve rate.
I don't feel too bad buying a 200 dollar script in the clients name and installing it into Mambo usig the URL menu feature to add functionality. I don't mind shelling out 20 to 30 Euro for a template or a component from a fellow Mambo geek using the client's paypal account and adding it to the client's website. The client is still getting incredible value with functionality compared to paying out big cash to the local developer(s).
Sure, some website hobbiests may cry foul because they want to spend only 10 bucks for a 300 dollar program. I've often balked at paying 50 dollars US and waited until it went 'on sale' to buy a license because it was something I wanted for my own personal site.
Yeah, I'd like to see a reduced price for non-commercial use, but that's not really in the cards, is it?
I'm firmly for a mixed bag of free, lite, lite commercial, and full blown commercial templates, components and modules within the Mambo community. If I have to work my *** off and make some sales to buy what I want, well, I guess that's the way it is. But, when I make a buck or two in consulting fees, I really don't mind sharing the revnue, steering a sale towards a 'pay for tool', or clicking the donate button after the fact on the designers/component or module contributor's website. From the surplus, or from the specs and budget of the job, I buy custom converted or tweaked templates, commercial scripts, components and mods, and if a opensource template is used....click a donate button. If only more would be willing to click or buy when they make a dollar extra in revenue.
In case you are wondering, NO, I don't charge 25,999.00 to upload a Mambo site. Like a golf pro who gives you a golf club.....the club is free...teaching you how to swing it costs so much per hour. I get great satisfaction making life hard for the other guy to justify his $35,000 price tag and charge a reasonable amount (there is a long story behind this that centers around the fact that they wouldn't hire a self taught programmer.....me....so I enjoy it when the company I formed with my unemployment cheques wins business away from them).
Oh, and if you think Mambo is drving down programming employment....not really. My Clients have reduced their prices to their clients, and they are creating more work for more people, for the same money. Good deeds seem to be spreading. More work! Who would have thought........
Mambo on folks, mambo on!
thethe papapa party of four, your table is ready.
mamboguy.com
30.11.2004, 07:42
I think it is all good for mambo, free and/or commercial products. I do, however, agree that components should be reasonably priced. If I have a need for a commercial component, and it is affordable, I will buy it.
Case in point:
Had a client who needed multiple forms on his site. Went out and bought Akoforms... can't even remember the price 20 euro?? The client doesn't care, I charged him $40, saved me 3 hrs of my time ($231) - money my client would have had to pay me.
Bring it all on, the more the merrier. :D
eyezberg
30.11.2004, 08:59
Sure, some website hobbiests may cry foul because they want to spend only 10 bucks for a 300 dollar program. I've often balked at paying 50 dollars US and waited until it went 'on sale' to buy a license because it was something I wanted for my own personal site.
Yeah, I'd like to see a reduced price for non-commercial use, but that's not really in the cards, is it?
I have highlighted the important points in the quote: if a component (module..) is sold commercially, maybe try to come up with two price schemes, personal/community/non-profit site vs client work..
The Problem is not how much it costs... The right Problem is to make poor a good project like Mambo. If all it is "on sale", Where can we find for free sw and why trying to make it better? The spirit of an Open Source is destroyed!! And without a Open Source target... I think there are al lot of CMS out there. I am very sorry but the the problem is not if the sw is buggy or not. The problem is to have a free community and NOT a commercial one.
I understand the right answer must be a balance of com & free. But no-one helps to grow a free-developer community. We need much tips & tricks.
Mambo is excellent, and I dream for the 5.0 version, but There are a very few free stuffs for us and without any variety.
Moreover I am very sorry for what happened to R.Castley (many many thanks to you) and even about "The ako-form vs. Phil-a-form accident" I was very impressioned.
My question is: what type of community is this?
As a newbie\hobiest to Mambo and all that is web I'm using Mambo to teach myself webdevelopment. I think it great to get the free coms, mods and bots. I use mamboportal alot because it has the greatest sellection of free stuff to play with. I would however on the otherhand like to see a portal that focuses on the true commercial script implementations in Mambo. To really see what Mambo can do. At present it is everyone for himself and it takes alot of surfing to get to see the actual commercial implementations within Mambo sites. A comercial portal could also be a better way to keep commercial pricing inline and relevant.
Arthur, this could be something to look into.
My bad, he's allready looking into it!
Quote from www.mamboportal.com:
Short timeout and upcoming project
Written by Arthur Konze
Monday, 29 November 2004
During the last week Mamboportal.com wasn't updated that regulary. This was due to a small timeout I took. My 10 month old daughter was baptized (I hope this is the right word) this weekend. I had to organize a lot things and therefore had lesser time for Mamboportal.com.
I also have kicked off a new project today, which will start end december, early january. I will build up a large Mambo shopping mall, where developers and designer can sell their products. This system will be open to everyone interested. I hope to make Mambo more attractive this way for people searching for commercial solutions and also give even developers with only 1 or 2 products a professional shop. If you are interested to become a vendor, please contact me.
At present it is everyone for himself and it takes alot of surfing to get to see the actual commercial implementations within Mambo sites. A comercial portal could also be a better way to keep commercial pricing inline and relevant.
Arthur, this could be something to look into.
I already did this. We are currently building up MamboShop.com. It will be a professional, multi-vendor shopping mall for Mambo. Every vendor can edit his products for himself (add new, change prices, etc.) and follow his sales. We will take over the billing (credit card handling, invoices, etc.) and handling (server space, instant download, etc.).
Testing and Finetuning of the system will be done in December. The GoLive is planed for end December, early January. Some developers already agreed to sell at MamboShop.com in the future. I hope some more will follow.
Besides our free efforts at project like Mamboportal.com or Mamble.com, we at Konze Webdesign hope to also provide a professional platform for people interested in commercial products and services.
I have highlighted the important points in the quote: if a component (module..) is sold commercially, maybe try to come up with two price schemes, personal/community/non-profit site vs client work..
This is one of the reasons I love Creative Commons. Personal / community / non-profit sites can happily co-exist using the same work that commercial enterprise pays a licencing fee for. I will be releasing more templates under CC licence once I feel I've finished my GPL "quota" :rolleyes:
Regarding the "Ako-form vs Phil-a-form" debarcle, I was also left with a bad taste in my mouth, due to the way the nature of competitive products was handled. Since PAF is now "off the books" as it were, perhaps Akoforms could make a comeback?
It's good to hear that Arthur is looking (again) at ways to increase the commercial visibility and viability for Mambo work. Hopefully, the level of supprt for commercial work will rise to the occassion..
baby.doc
30.11.2004, 11:29
So, my opinion to this topic is like some others said before, that $20-30 is in proportion to what most commercial components output to much. For this price for example i can go to a local shop and get a antivirus softwarwe in a nice paperbox, with a printed manual and 24/7 update support.
But i think the main reason why the prices are so high is that some users, take mambo components use them theirselfs in a commercial way, but never click on any donate button. So i can understand the developers who spend their time to develope a great compontent without getting any financial tribute. Why isn´t it possible to charge the software for commercial customers in an other way then non commercial uers?
Anyway, all in all its great that mambo is an open source plattform with rising number of free tutorials, so that everyone can develope the components, modules and templates he needs, spending his time for himself, and then share it with all other members of the community.
ChaosNo1
30.11.2004, 11:40
mhh, bacame mambo too comercial?
YES IT DID!
Where will Mambo be in about one or two years?
There will it be if more and more comercial componets, modules and mambots are springing up like mushrooms?
There will it be, if you have to pay for the most addons?
Ok, there are still many free projects, but what happens, if some of them also want to grab a piece of the cake? I think, some already did!
And to offer a Service for this "small offerer" of only "a few commercial addons" is an invitation to all to build their own commercial stuff. And of course, its to make money with, becaus i don't think that you will offer this service for free. Why you are asking if Mambo bacame to commercial when you become it more and more?
To offer remmitance work for custom-tailored addons, template and services is the only thing, that legitimate commercial work.
This is my opninion about it. I know i can not change the evolution of the mambo-environment, but i can change the cms and i will it do betimes.
regards
Sascha
mmm... i think every commercial stuff will eliminate with same function component created by new mambo comer with the real open source spirit.
So... no matter with all that
I started using mambo becuase it was free, and coming from a background of developing conventional html websites the ease of a CMS based system was awesome. The components and modules were awesome and FREE. As my experience grew I began to consider the commercial apsects of delivering this as a solution to a number of 'cash strapped' organisations who just needed something more than HTML only but couldn't afford thousands of pounds for (least of all risk it on my one/two man band rather than a large commercial house). So FREE mambo gave me the way in.
If there is a commercial offering that brings some required functionality that I require or provides a solution to a problem in a much easier, clearer and straight forward manner to my end users (who by definition are users and not programmers) then I will pay for it and put it on their bill. A price of $20 - $30 makes me think "Yep that looks like it will do the job nicely" and I will go for it and take the slight risk of it not being right for this task (my loss). Any higher, then the decision is much harder, but delvelopers can seriously help themselves on this one by offering 'Lite' versions for free. If I am paying for something though, I would want some initial support, or at least the comfort of knowing that it would be forthcoming, sometimes this can be determined by asking a pre-sales question (a well known developer took 10 days to answer my pre-sales question, and then didn't answer the main points, so what chance of support after purchase, I went for his competitor).
Other topics that get me are the use of Ion encoders and domain specific licenses, Yes, I can see the point but I would like the option of using these purchased items and testing them on my own linux box, before running them against a client's live system.
My Closing shot is that if it is worth it and it does the job better than a free version or it makes my client's life easier (and hence mine) then I am up for it. But I wouldn't always say commercial is better than free, I have used the Miro CMS and here I am using mambo all the time.
Of course it is good to have both free and commercial addons for Mambo, but still paying significant amount of money for some product that you know doesn't worth that much is not so nice. Price of 20£+ for some basic component is a example of overcharging. Beside that, for most of the components I've purchased there is NO support. So if something doesn't work, you're on your own. I've purchased f. ex. Phil-a-form ... nice script, now the guy has stopped further development, and there is still sentence on his web site "lifetime updates" lol ... probably he will come up with next generation of form processing component for the next generation of Mambo (v5) ... Anyway if you want to extend functionality of your Mambo site, you have to add some commercial addons, but at the end it will cost you just as much as you have purchased a commercial CMS with built in functionalisties. I've seen some post where is mentioned some 35.000 $ charge for CMS ... anyway I think 35K $ is enough for your own server, 1 year of Internet access and pay for 6 months for excellent programer to develop you very own CMS :) so if you can find me some of the customers for 35K $ I would be very happy :)
thethepapapa
30.11.2004, 13:20
I too have purchased the Miro version. It didn't work with the opensource contributions, so eventually I became immersed in the opensource version.
This local company that charges $35,000 for their ASP based CMS is rather interesting. They have also charged similar amounts for their shopping cart and e-commerce solution. They are charging clients huge dollars for skinning OS commerce and stripping off the OScommerce credits on the page (but leaving them intact in the php code). I laugh when I read thier ads stating they have spent years 'developing' this solution.....more like years reading oscommerce's forums.
I like the idea of a forum where one can discuss commercial application of Mambo. There is a few folks here in this thread who are endorsing Mambo to their clients, and in some cases (like mine) it forms the core of the web site. It might be interesting to form an 'opensource' collective of commercial users to discuss how to better serve our clients. In fact, it might be an interesting brain trust and pooling of talent so each of us can take on bigger corporate entities locally. Like you said, its hard to compete against the corporate shop when you are just a one or two man shop. Who knows, it even may have helped head off a 'Furthermor' situation had it existed.
Hmmm, I've got a spare domain name registered...and its perfect for this application.......Don't want to hijack this thread,
I know exactly what you mean by that. No so long ago I've found a interesting company that offers "professional" CMS for free. If you want to type in some content you have to use administration tool they've "developed". And that admin tool is not free, it costs 399$ :eek: ...
Hi,
I find this to be a very interesting topic. The one major question I have is what license are the commercialized add-ons sold at? Mambo is OS under the GNU Public License which I can say does not give much room for commercialized add-on, menaing I have the hand on the script. You can not control your product as it is freely available for the community.
We have gone into this matter very much, as I am very fond of the API from Mambo and we are writing a CRM on the basis of the Mambo API (Beta release hopefully before X-Mas). We would like to change the Public License to the Morzilla version but do not know yet if that is possible. Further we will establish an Opensource CRM and yes, we will try to make money from it. But not for the basic SW itself but on very sophisticated add-on and on a yearly maintenance fees.
I believe that asking for a license fee for a OS product is a joke and many companies can not afford high capital investment. SO why not say you charge a small amount per user on a yearly basis and this expense is lower then the implementation and investement cost or the annual ammortization expenses. This will lead to a better Cashflow and sound much better. Further all updates should be for free!!
The community drives through the Opensource and man we can be really happy still that the OS is where it stands. If what the EU wants to allow programmers to patent their scripts, or algorism which are currently avaialble to download on the internet, the OS community will stop existing right away.
So I am saying that it is good to have a free mambo and also a commercialzed add-on. The cake is big enough and if you find the customer to pay, much better.
Bob
eyezberg
30.11.2004, 17:49
The discussion started to get slightly off-topic with my post I think, more "how much should be charged" opinions than about the original subject.. mea culpa.
Let me sum up my opinion once more:
Mambo can be used in two ways: for smaller, personal, community sites which are self-developped and have no/very small resources to buy stuff (commercial CMTs). For these sites, I believe there should be a "non-profit" licence of the CMTs.
Used for commercial sites, it's the clients budget.
The developper has to consider if
a) he can code the requiered functionality into the CMS,
b) a free CMT (component/module/template, just in case..) exists and is bug-free/stable/advanced/... enough to do the job
c) he'll save time and efforts and buy a commercial CMT which fullfills the requierements, if there is one..
d) he commissions a commercial CMT which is custom-made for the specific clients needs
If a), will this then be a new commercial component (more $ for the dev')?
If b), will there be an investment by donating to support it and stimulate the future developement..?
If c), how good will support be? What happens if the client later demands feature changes/additions to this part of the site?
If d), what will be the licence of this CMT?
There's no need to discuss licensing details, as there are many threads both here and over at the official forums about this..
I think the idea of not for profit licencing is a great idea, I do a lots of free community stuff and that would help as some times I buy it out of my own pocket with the hope I can recoup later.
I mean I pay for the name, host and mambo add ins, but if its to pricey I dont buy commercial mambo.
But what really bugs me more than anything else is not paying for a good mambo add in, but being restricted not just to one server but to just one website with some commercial products, thats worse than M$, that I consider more exploitative than anything else.
If I buy a car I can use it on more than one road, with restricted licences that cost the same or just a bit less for repeats, I might buy once but never again unless I have to, on the other hand if I paid say $80 for a really good component and then was asked $5 or $10 for repeats and it was really good I would not think twice about donating to a community project if there was not a not for profit option. I might think once but not twice.
I would probobly buy much more if everything was $5-$10 though. In fact I would buy all competing products to compare and use where they most fit and so I suspect lots of others would too!
I would prefer a server licences though for commercial restricted more pricey products.
Unlike some even with a single licence I wont break a licence and just use it again and again. Just my concience but there you go.
I do think that OpenSource & Commercial work well together and benefit mambo all round in the longer term.
I said the same in the early days of the UK community wireless ISPs and nobody liked it, I said unless you incorporate good business and community models the big boys will walk all over the potential for what can be achied and and you will not survive let alone be able to offer what we all knew then was the best for the end user. Guess what happened, the movement got highjacked by BT etal.
If mambo is to be THE CMS it must touch and be useful to the widest possible audiance, sure we would all like it all FREE but thats not going to engender the widest possible use.
Mambo has the chance to be the M$ of CMS's without the monopolistic down side of Gatesism as long as the balance is kept. How is that done? Right here by keeping the community open and with people each doing thier bit, we are Mambo and abit of peer presure does wonders as long as it don't get personal.
Personally I would love to work with a few coders on a few community & commercial mambo add ins, I am very creative but I cant code for toffee. The best way I would think is a broader colaberative development but the last time i made some moves I got slammed :confused:
mikedeboer
01.12.2004, 06:37
I, as the developer of the zOOm Media Gallery CMT, hasn't become too commercial YET!
I have given some serious thought on the future of my component and other future projects I might get involved in; currently I cannot keep up with the current number of forum posts and service requests - it's just too damn much! This is when one has to start thinking commercial: what if you start asking money for your services? The CMT should stay free, GPL licensed as it was, but installation services and specific feature requests are easy to ask money for. The users who want your service REALLY bad will buy it from you.
In addition, if I choose to release zOOm as a stand-alone version (eg. a 'totally' new product), then I CAN charge for it, because it is the result of a long, time consuming development process. No moral objections whatsoever, right?
Fact is, that the most important (core?) CMT's - SimpleBoard, akoBook, DocMan, zOOm, etc. - won't go commercial all of a sudden! Open Source still has its advantages: faster development, development/ project groups, faster bugtracking, users-help-users, etc.
On the height of CMT/ module prices: this is how the market works! First you charge too much (optimistic), then lower the price (realistic) and finally get at a price level everybody's happy with (balanced prices). If this process takes up too much of your time, then you could always negotiate!
eyezberg
01.12.2004, 12:01
This is what is missing in this conversation:
opinions from dev's who have commercial CMTs on the market!! please!
=> Did you ever change the price/make promotional offers because of to few sales/ did that improve sales?
=> WHY did you make your component commercial (apart from the $$ of course), why not open source..?
=> how did you set the initial price for your component?
I'd like to from the folks at HotProperty, Phil, all of you template designers who sell your layouts, Saka, Arthur... thanks ;)
Dragon4678
01.12.2004, 13:50
I am especially not pleased with HTML Area 3 going commercial.
I don't have access to paypal, and so I am stuck with this half useless, half broken version of HTMLArea3.
The developer basically left the free version completely bug prone and requiring a lot of fixing and debugging.
But now he has found the fixes to most of the problems, but not only is he not sharing them with the open source community, he is also charging for the product... *Sigh*... And the editor is like the main part of the cms that makes it either user friendly... or not.... :(
I, as the developer of the zOOm Media Gallery CMT, hasn't become too commercial YET!
I have given some serious thought on the future of my component and other future projects I might get involved in; currently I cannot keep up with the current number of forum posts and service requests - it's just too damn much! This is when one has to start thinking commercial: what if you start asking money for your services?
I could see how that could be onerous but I have had no problems with it and you could say offer a here are the links to support issues and pay for pro support basis. You must have mainly recuring issues and people don't read.
In addition, if I choose to release zOOm as a stand-alone version (eg. a 'totally' new product), then I CAN charge for it, because it is the result of a long, time consuming development process. No moral objections whatsoever, right? ! Nope!
On the height of CMT/ module prices: this is how the market works! First you charge too much (optimistic), then lower the price (realistic) and finally get at a price level everybody's happy with (balanced prices). If this process takes up too much of your time, then you could always negotiate!
I havent seen any make me an offer deals yet.
Mambo can be used in two ways: for smaller, personal, community sites which are self-developped and have no/very small resources to buy stuff (commercial CMTs). For these sites, I believe there should be a "non-profit" licence of the CMTs.
I think the acepted term is Not For Profit (NFP) but the trouble with that is there are businesses, even masive ones that are NFP (charities and others) but still operate very commercialy. Also the IT manager might get paid $50k PA and have a $500k PA IT budget and a small club with $0 IT budget.
They might both be customers that I would have to charge something or might charge $0 how would that fit.
I might be commercial in doing the above but run at a loss or just break even for such projects as part of our community program!
Are you saying NFP as organisation or a site or just not in any way commercial or money taking?
I could give more examples.
This is what is missing in this conversation:
opinions from dev's who have commercial CMTs on the market!! please!
=> Did you ever change the price/make promotional offers because of to few sales/ did that improve sales?
=> WHY did you make your component commercial (apart from the $$ of course), why not open source..?
=> how did you set the initial price for your component?
I'd like to from the folks at HotProperty, Phil, all of you template designers who sell your layouts, Saka, Arthur... thanks ;)
As a template designer
1) I only change sale prices on predesigned layouts for Mambo - the work is done and it's just a matter of finding a price point to syndicate them correctly.
2) The only commercial component I'm working on at the moment will be "ransomed" for a predetermined fee and then released to the community free once that fee has been met.
3) Look at what other people are charging for the same kind of work. Market rates are market rates.
I, like most people hear probably, have worked with serveral different CMSs including the Nukes, Drupals, Typos, and all the other popular and up-and-coming solutions. Mambo is by far the best. And it's the best all around. If that means I have to pay a few dollars for some add-ons to get some more refined features so be it. I think it only makes Mambo that much stronger.
And off topic. Nice idea regarding the Topic of the Week.
mikedeboer
02.12.2004, 02:57
And the editor is like the main part of the cms that makes it either user friendly... or not.... :(
Just try the FCKEditor then from the Mamboportal.com filebase! It's cross-browser (unlike HTMLArea3) and completele free (for now ;) ) !!! If you don't like paying for a piece of software of which the author is entitled to charge a price for OR can't pay for it for some reason, you should settle for the next-best solution!
By the way: FCKEditor 2.0 isn't a next-best solution anymore, in my humble opinion; it's on its way of replacing HTMLArea for good!
3) Look at what other people are charging for the same kind of work. Market rates are market rates. --> I agree with Absolom here...the market has yet to take it's real shape yet, because developers have just started to release commercial Mambo soft on a large scale...only prerequisite of fairness is that it stays as transparent as it is now!
ChaosNo1
02.12.2004, 09:44
I would like to know, what the developers of commercial stuff thought, when they starded with mambo.
Did you all planned to get commercial from beginnig? What did you thought, when you released you first free product? Did you do it for the community or did you do it to get known for better selling your products later?
And what about them, who has moved their free products to not free products? What was the reason to change from a free developer to a "money maker"?
Sorry, but i can not understand the why. Why more and more of you want to make money with mambo? What happens?
And you can not tell me, that you decided to to this, because you had sooooo much work with supporting your free products. Of course you did, but you will have this work ever and it doesn't matter if your product is free oder commercial. I also get many support-requests for my stuff, but i never never never thought about to get a commercial way.
I very sad about this, and if this will be the future of mambo i will not stay with it.
I would like to know, what the developers of commercial stuff thought, when they starded with mambo. Did you all planned to get commercial from beginnig? What did you thought, when you released you first free product? Did you do it for the community or did you do it to get known for better selling your products later?
Of course I can only speak for myself, but I think many other commercial developers did it the same way.
Personally I started to code for Mambo, as I needed solutions, which did not exist or because I was unsatsfied with the available solutions. I needed a gallery and coded AkoGallery, I needed a comment system and coded AkoComment, etc.
Like many others I of course shared it for free with the community. Please don't forget this! Take a look at Phil Taylor, who released a bunch of things for free, or take a look at Pedro Goncalves, which released a new free component right today. I guess everyone of us does this for the community.
Besides the dozens of free products I also offer commercial products. These commercial products were started, because people asked me to do so. Yes, it was not my intention! It started with a few jobs here and there. "Arthur, could you code this for me? I am willing to pay for it". This showed me, that there in fact is a market for commercial solutions.
So I started to release commercial products, which are supported better and do come with extra's like a manual or ready-2-run header images. Many people bought these products, because they wanted it...
Sorry, but i can not understand the why. Why more and more of you want to make money with mambo? What happens?
I very sad about this, and if this will be the future of mambo i will not stay with it.
Well, if you ask me what happened, I only can tell you, that the Mambo community has grown. 1-2 years ago there were only a few freaks, who discovered the potential of Mambo. With the 4.5 release a year ago many, even larger, companies discovered Mambo. They are willing to pay for solutions, if they are tailored to their needs, fully supported and of high quality.
The Mambo community now has to face this challenge. If we are able to provide these solutions, then Mambo surely will establish it's place between the great, well known CMS like typo3, reddot and others...
ChaosNo1
02.12.2004, 12:03
Hi,
thank you for your statement!
But i do not think, that the support of some commercial products is better than for free products ;)
They are willing to pay for solutions, if they are tailored to their needs, fully supported and of high quality.
I agree and i think that its ok to do or to offer commercial services like this. And of course, commercial products are not bad at all.
You said, the community has grown. Of course it did, but i fear that the community and mambo grows in the wrong way.
The problem are not the commercial products themselves, the problem is that more and more developers become commercial. Who is the next? What happens, if simpleboard becomes a commercial product? What happens, if mamblefish, mambo phpshop or other existing free products become commercial,?
Of course the community has grown, but i also think this trend will slow down the growing of mambo
Regards
Sascha
eyezberg
02.12.2004, 14:58
What happens, if simpleboard becomes a commercial product? What happens, if mamblefish, mambo phpshop or other existing free products become commercial,?
Then we all leave.
A forum, ecommerce solution, internationalization/multi-language support, picture gallery, download manager and a few other community -building CMTs are necessary parts of a CMS and should be (made) part of the core install.
Mambo (team) needs to establish which direction it intends to head towards, community or business..
Thanks, Arthur and Absalom, for your "commercial" lights on this. And of course, for your free releases :)
I started like a year ago with mambo (maybe longer, i don't know anymore). I got introduced by it by a mate of mine, who has his own server and installed mambo on it. I was really searching for some system to control my website with, and tried phpnuke, but i couldn't find out how to install. So i asked him 'bout another cms and he told me try this man, it's awesome, i said ok let's give it a try. Since then i never used another system then mambo, on none of my sites is a normal system which i coded myself. In the time i started almost all components were free to use, and also very good. Now the time has come that many people need other features then are included in the free components / modules or whatever. And since many of them can't make any decent code, or have no idea how to do this they just want to buy it. It's just a growing marked imho.
Giving an example; My dads boss wants a website, completely. He hires a webdesign-company and they ask roundabout 12000 euro! This are really stupid amounts of money for such websites! It's just a blowed up business.
Maybe this example was a bit of off-topic, i'm not saying people are asking too much money for their components / modules / templates.
Mambo became in my opinion somewhat too commercial, maybe as said before a price-system is better, make some seperated part of particulars (people who make their site for fun) and companies (who earn money with it). Since the last group can afford more money then the first ones, and are also willing to pay more.
idigital
02.12.2004, 15:40
I, as the developer of the zOOm Media Gallery CMT, hasn't become too commercial YET!
I have given some serious thought on the future of my component and other future projects I might get involved in; currently I cannot keep up with the current number of forum posts and service requests - it's just too damn much! This is when one has to start thinking commercial: what if you start asking money for your services? The CMT should stay free, GPL licensed as it was, but installation services and specific feature requests are easy to ask money for. The users who want your service REALLY bad will buy it from you.
I completely agree here, I think possibly the best method for releasing Mambo CMTs is on a free/service basis. Even better, a dual license based on Creative Commons, so a free for most and paid for commercial use. Then paid service as well, as this is really the only way to support continued development of a product.
In addition, if I choose to release zOOm as a stand-alone version (eg. a 'totally' new product), then I CAN charge for it, because it is the result of a long, time consuming development process. No moral objections whatsoever, right?
Actually, no offence intended, but I have to disagree here.
zOOm is based on rsGallery originally, a GPL product. So you can't release it as a stand alone version and consider it a commercial product.
I'm not sure if there is something in GPL that specifies just how much a product must be altered before it is considered a totally new product. This is definitely shaky moral territory though.
Fact is, that the most important (core?) CMT's - SimpleBoard, akoBook, DocMan, zOOm, etc. - won't go commercial all of a sudden! Open Source still has its advantages: faster development, development/ project groups, faster bugtracking, users-help-users, etc.
On the height of CMT/ module prices: this is how the market works! First you charge too much (optimistic), then lower the price (realistic) and finally get at a price level everybody's happy with (balanced prices). If this process takes up too much of your time, then you could always negotiate!
I think that a free release and paid service model makes the most sense, as this also cuts down on the costing for commercial releases at the moment. If you don't have to factor continued tech support costs etc into the product, then you can charge less for the paid version.
Dual licensed Creative Commons with paid service support, I think this is the way ahead for Mambo.
Cheers,
Damian
p.s. Again, great work on zOOm Mike! Thanks for not making it another Mambo Linkware release ;)
Did Mambo become too commercial
In a word, No
Look at the power of this CMS and it costs nothing. Mambo enables people to do more than they could ever do without it and it does not ask for a thing in return.
I disagree totally that we should expect Mambo to include forums and ecomerce in the core to be a valid CMS. That direction would mire the progress of a great framework down, and slow its progress. That is exactly why there is a need for CMTs from third parties.
Now have the third party devs become to commercial
In a word, No
Time has value and anyone can and should decide what they want in return for the investment. I have purchased 4 Commercial products since I started. Two were supported well and I would make the investment again. Two left me very disapointed.
Those were my choices to make, and hey I am batting 50/50.
Two of the best supported CMTs that I know of are SEF Advance, and Facile Forms.
One free one commercial. Support while I know will be discussed as an issue, in reality is more an indication of the devs commitment and charachter. Free ones are no better or worse when it comes to support.
I think the idea of having free and commercial versions of a CMT is a great approach, and I think having a showcase for these products is even a better idea.
I hope we never get to the point that we just sit arround with our hands out waiting for the next release of someones hard work is released.
If you can not afford to pay for a CMT then help out other ways. Write some documentation, help out on the support forums. There are a lot of hard working dedicated people out there doing great work.
Coughing up a few bucks or spending some time helping out is the least we can do to support them
TJay
mikedeboer
02.12.2004, 19:37
zOOm is based on rsGallery originally, a GPL product. So you can't release it as a stand alone version and consider it a commercial product.
I have to disagree on this point again: I left the notion of RSGallery intact in the zOOm source out of respect for Ronald Smit, not because zOOm 2.1 is based on RSGallery anymore!!! Look at it closely: you will not find any code linked to RSGallery anymore, except for the Image Library auto-detection feature...all commercial products contain 'lended' code from GPL'ed software, but they often don't have the guts to say so...I'm just being honest and respectful here!
If you can not afford to pay for a CMT then help out other ways. Write some documentation, help out on the support forums. There are a lot of hard working dedicated people out there doing great work.users, especially commercial site-builders have to become more aware of this imho. I would like some offers in this extend!
ALL MAMBO USERS, PLEASE READ THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC! :)
Mike,
I am not much of a coder, but I offer projects I use web space and site support. I also write tutorials and documentation when I can. I use Zoom and think it is the best gallery option for Mambo currently.
If you could use any help in those areas check out FacileForms.biz I am doing what I can to help Peter's project because it is a fantastic piece of work.
I guess if there were more people like TJay, nobody would need to worry about powerfuls gpl components going commercial in future. The community has to realize that open source is not a one way street, especially when a project is non-trivial and requires extensive support. If the community only takes the gpl'd components thankfully, but does not support the developers the way TJay is doing for me, there is in long term only the choise to go commercial or drop or step back from the project. It is _NOT_ the money causing this, but if you are in the position of the developer this is probably the only way to continue when the projects eat up all your time because you get not support from those > 100'000 people that are using mambo.
It seems that most of the posters here do not feel Mambo is too comercial. Are there voices on the Yes side of the debate that can weigh in with why you feel it has become to comercial?
This is a good discussion, not as firey and much more productive than the spyware thread.
RejuviNET.com
03.12.2004, 20:49
This is what is missing in this conversation:
opinions from dev's who have commercial CMTs on the market!! please!
=> Did you ever change the price/make promotional offers because of to few sales/ did that improve sales?
=> WHY did you make your component commercial (apart from the $$ of course), why not open source..?
=> how did you set the initial price for your component?
I'd like to from the folks at HotProperty, Phil, all of you template designers who sell your layouts, Saka, Arthur... thanks ;)
I'll take you up on this one, Joe... :)
As most people know, I have a pretty set price of about $100 for the templates I make. Usually about twice a month I'll run specials like 30% discounts or two-for-one deals - things of that nature.
The thing that really gets me wondering is why in the world would people rather pay full price for my products when I'm running deals? More often than not, when I run a special deal sales will drop. When I keep things on an even keel, sales are normal/above normal.
Here's an example: last week I ran a promotion to help build up my new "monthly template" membership base. The annual membership is $200 and gets the member two templates a month for a year - 24 templates. At $100 each at regular prices, you'd think $200 vs. $2400 would be a good deal, right? Next to nothing.
So... I run a 3 day promo that offers the first 3 people who purchase a membership a free copy of every template I currently have. That's 15 templates, PLUS the 24 with the membership - for $200. Not a single person took advantage of the promo.
Yet - within hours of the promo expiring, there were two memberships purchased and an order for 7 templates at full price.
Go figure.
Three weeks ago I had a 2-for-1 deal running on Template Monster template conversions - no orders until the deal expired, then they came in droves.
I can't understand it. I see both sides of the issue - the developer needing to be compensated fairly for his/her work (regardless of what the product is - component, module, template, whatever) versus the need to keep prices low. So I try to "straddle" that line and run bi-monthly promos. But when sales are more up to par when I'm not running a promo, it makes me wonder if I should just leave sleeping dogs lie and maintain pricing as it is.
I try to keep my prices as competitive as possible while still being able to fend for my family, and understand when I get the occasional email saying my prices are a little too steep. But when I get more sales at the higher price than I do when I run promos, it has to make you wonder. When people are placing orders for multiple templates, paying for them individually, rather than taking advantage of deals, you have to scratch your head, don't you think? ;)
Wow, what a great thread.
Making MamboMatch a commercial component was a no-brainer for me. It
had been a commercial application before and there was no other
matchmaking software available for Mambo. Many in this dating/matchmaking
business are making a fortune. In my opinion if a component has the potential
of earning profit for the user or if it's used as part of a commercial business
process then that's a good case for making it commercial.
I have seen many GPL components that are clearly commercial applications
that the author is giving away for free. I don't understand. I don't think
those developers understand either.
The whole "free lunch" vs "free speech" thing is completely misunderstood in
this community. Here's some examples:
- pre-release MamboMatch was $21, which should be a very good price point
based on what I have read here. OK, are you ready? Exactly 2 copies were
sold at that price.
- while that price was in effect I received over 30 requests for a free copy
of the program from people who were running those so-called community,
not-for-profit sites. In other words, hobby sites. Whether you collect
postage stamps, build model cars, or grow African Violets, there
is NO HOBBY that you can do for free. They all cost money, and $21 is
a reasonable price in that context.
- my wife chastised me for trying to "swim upstream" by charging money and
encoding my software. So I released MamboMatch with full source code,
after all this is an open-source community. The sales volume has not
changed substantially from the pre-release sales. "Open Source" does not
have to equate to "Free".
- People have written that components at $5 or $10 would be a great
price point. I agree. Groceries and gasoline at that price point would be
great too. You're dreaming. Sure Symantec can sell millions of copies
of Antivirus at $29.95 and make a profit. I must sell 3 copies of
MamboMatch at $10 to fill my gas tank; 10 copies for a typical grocery
order; 3 to buy MY copy of Norton Antivirus; 20 to pay my monthly
co-lo hosting fee. On top of that I'm expected to maintain, support and
enhance the software. In what world does that make business sense?
- I was chastised for charging for MamboMatch and people said they'll wait
for a GPL vesion to come out. I have never seen anyone suggest that all
Linux or FreeBSD software should be free, yet they have no trouble
suggesting that Mambo CMT's should be free.
I think people here need to realize that historically most CMT's for Mambo
have been available for free and this has created an expectation that
they should all be free. This has fostered the wrong idea about open source
software in general. More commercial CMT's and more commercial service
providers will make Mambo stronger in the long run and move it towards
an enterprise-class product. If people put down commercial software
developers then Mambo will simply become a hobbyist's toy to play with.
On the other hand when commercial software developers and service
providers are visible and people take notice of the fact that this kind of
activity costs money and time and people incur business risk by developing
on the Mambo platform it will take Mambo to an entirely new level.
Jeff
eyezberg
03.12.2004, 22:13
Businesses will generally be afraid of free stuff, so the end of your post is dead-on!
Of course, hobbies cost money, but using a freeware like Mambo means also there's not much of a budget to work with;
at least not in my case, and as the site gets more popular, I have to add on more and more bandwidth to keep it live etc etc..
I have so far bought 2 templates and a membership at Mambosolutions, all of Phil's components (when he was running deals), and SEF Advance.
I would love to use Mosets Tree, can think of many usages, but haven't got the cash to buy it.
That's the reason I argue about pricing for non-profit vs commercial/money-making sites.
In some points I agree with Jefrey, like that he has to pay his bills for it.. But like I said before, it's a reasonable price $21 for commercial use indeed.
Make 2 versions, one basic version which isn't that expanded and one bigger one for companies. The basic version shouldn't be at sites which earn money with it, so you'll have to push them to get the 'enterprise' edition.
Ofcourse we just are grown up with the idea everything is free for mambo, but it just costs time, time is money and so people search ways to compensate it.
I have textbased.net now already for 2 years, just a student and always trying to get a nice component for it to expand the website. Also there are lots of free components which can be modified to your own needs.
eyezberg
03.12.2004, 22:36
Also there are lots of free components which can be modified to your own needs.
Yes. If you know how to :)
I don't know about the geek factor of the common Mambo user, but not all of them/us may be as good with PHP as the component writers; I prefer to stick to bug reporting/testing and translating..
Yes. If you know how to :)
I don't know about the geek factor of the common Mambo user, but not all of them/us may be as good with PHP as the component writers; I prefer to stick to bug reporting/testing and translating..
How's your SEF Joe?
:tongue: :thumbsup:
____________________________
Leo Lammerink aka Mamboindo :)
Mike,
I am not much of a coder, but I offer projects I use web space and site support. I also write tutorials and documentation when I can. I use Zoom and think it is the best gallery option for Mambo currently.
If you could use any help in those areas check out FacileForms.biz I am doing what I can to help Peter's project because it is a fantastic piece of work.
I completely agree with what you state here. I have never seen a better support than the one Peter Koch is giving on his site and this is based on my own experience. The way Tjay is helping Peter is a way of paying back very valuable development/family-time which is lost by giving this support to us the community. And I do agree that one not always has to pay hard cash for the support. This last week I have spend much time on Peter' component Facile Forms and I have send to his forum many requests. I do ask myself whether he has time to do anything else besides giving support if you see the laod of time he spends on his forum. And here I say all of us (non original developers but users of a component) can do a load of work in the back-ground. I personally do the same what Tjay is doing for Peter with another component and develop supporting parts such as forms ( :thumbsup: ) and extensions for this component which I need for my site as well but give all rights and credits to the component designer for distribution and marketing. If he can make money with it fine.....Initially he has spend tons of time and therefore money on his component and helping me. Mambo is definitely not commercial enough in my opinion and especially not where it is related to support. I forsee a future where you will have to pay for support but where the component is free.
(Arthur:: another site opportunity ;) ) Let me explain this with my experiences based on the Facile Forms component and the terrific support I received so far.
1. I had questions about the options and specifics which should be answered since docs are not ready yet.
2. They were promptly answered without hesitation or delay by Peter and my form started to work fine.
3. Now I went deeper and asked for specific functionality which required some coding from Peter Koch (I am not a programmer) and he did this for me without hesitation and on his own initiative.
And here is the point I want to make. This is the point where in my opinion a developer will be entitled to ask money for some specific end-user (me) requirements. A developer needs to give warranty and quarantee bugs removal, a support forum combined with good documentation. If these requirements are fulfilled he is completely entitled to ask for money for specific requirements which are basically end-user requests.
(don't dare to charge me now Peter.... ;)
So I am most willing to participate in the develpment of a commercial service/warranty contract between end-users and developers where the end-user subscribes to a service agreement with the developer for a certain amount per year. This service agreement protects the consumer (community) as well as the developer, describes clearly the rights and obligations and also describes the legislation and arbitration. This would also end the endless wars on the forums as we have seen and still see between developers and consumers. It also would guarantee the an excellent service and support level (again see Peter Koch as example for all developers and he does NOT charge for his component!)
Just give me a feed-back on this idea? I have been thinking a long time about this and have some clear ideas how this could run benificial for all involved?
____________________________
Leo Lammerink aka Mamboindo:)
Hi,
first of all many thanks for the large amount of submissions to this topic. This showed us how hot this topic in fact is.
Most of the users do not believe that Mambo became too commercial. They see commercial products as a valueable addition to the existing free solutions. However there also are a few critical voices, which remind us that Mambo's success did not came from it's commercial, but from it's free products and services.
:closed:
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